Fly Away Jib Poles

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This topic contains 27 replies, has 11 voices, and was last updated by  Alex Baxter 4 years, 8 months ago.

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  • #51670

    Alex Baxter
    Participant

    Are we allowed to have fly away jib poles ?

    If not is this something that we should consider as a class ?

    Thanks

    Alex

    #53644

    Guy
    Participant

    We are allowed them, so go ahead by all means. Guy Tec Sec

    #53645

    chris guy
    Participant

    It’s all very well being able to launch the pole quickly but what are you going to hit the crew with when they answer back?

    #53646

    Tony Thresher
    Participant

    Before anyone races off and fits flyaway poles as per Nat12, Grads, Ents etc. we need to check our rules. They are not specifically allowed in the rules so therefore in a one design not allowed. Flyaway poles are more than just a storage system for the jib pole and enable the jib to be controlled in a completely different way. I have written to Guy and he is considering this as I write, well actually its well past his bedtime so probably tomorrow!

    Tony

    #53647

    Guy
    Participant

    Hi Alex,

    Having reviewed your suggestion about Fly-away poles I had failed to realise that this term also includes the pole being not only stored on the mast/boom but also in some way is used to pole out the jib in a simialr way to that achieved with barber haulers i.e. helping to hold the jib shape on reaches so adding power. This additional use would be illegal in our rules and would need class discussion as a rule change and a vote to ratify it. So storing it alone is ok, using the pole in any other way than to boom out the jib in our usual downwind manner, is not ok. sorry about my first inaccurate response.

    #53648

    Alex Baxter
    Participant

    That’s okay Guy, just out of interest what rule is it infringing or is it more we would just need to amend the rules to say ‘Flyaway poles are allowed’. Because I think this is something we should defiantly do as seemingly every other class in the UK that doesn’t have a spinnaker has one i.e Graduate, Albacore, N12, Enterprise , ICON ect and all of which will tell you how much of a difference and an advantage it makes. I do a lot of handicap events in my firefly against these classes and it gives them a big advantage on a dead-run/broad-reach situation. Another thing which I would say is that if this does get passed at the AGM (as I intend to peruse it) should we consider as the other classes allowed to not have a maximum and minimum length, allowing the jib to be on the other side in a broad-reach which would allow the boat to plane sooner and so get the jib out on the other side much more easily in light wind. Any thoughts would be well received.

    Thanks

    Alex

    #53649

    Alex Baxter
    Participant

    That’s okay Guy, just out of interest what rule is it infringing or is it more we would just need to amend the rules to say ‘Flyaway poles are allowed’. Because I think this is something we should defiantly do as seemingly every other class in the UK that doesn’t have a spinnaker has one i.e Graduate, Albacore, N12, Enterprise , ICON ect and all of which will tell you how much of a difference and an advantage it makes. I do a lot of handicap events in my firefly against these classes and it gives them a big advantage on a dead-run/broad-reach situation. Another thing which I would say is that if this does get passed at the AGM (as I intend to peruse it) should we consider as the other classes allowed to not have a maximum and minimum length, allowing the jib to be on the other side in a broad-reach which would allow the boat to plane sooner and so get the jib out on the other side much more easily in light wind. Any thoughts would be well received.

    Thanks

    Alex

    #53650

    Andy Reilly
    Participant

    Hi Alex, I agree with all of your observations but I personally do not agree with the conclusion. The rules that would need amending are for remote control lines, alternative sheeting of the jib, length of the jib stick and the rule about the distance that the end of the jib pole can be from the fitting on the mast. But changing rules is what AGMs are for and the total cost of installing a floppy poles system is about

    #53652

    Alex Baxter
    Participant

    Well I looked at the costing of upgrading my current jib stick using P&B and found all of the bits cost around 59 pounds. Another thing which I would say is that we wouldn’t necessarily need to adapt the length that was just and idea, meaning that there wouldn’t be a clear advantage, it would just be easier to deploy. For example in the Graduate fleet Steve Cockrill doesn’t use a fly away pole he just uses a normal wisker pole, and subsequently has won there nationals for the last 4 years and won the battle of the classes, so perhaps there isn’t a real advantage in boat speed if we kept the length the same meaning people wouldn’t ‘need’ to convert so we wouldn’t end up like the ent class where you quite generally have to have one to remain competitive. Another thing with the firefly is that it wouldn’t be as useful to ask as a ‘jib kicker’ because the firefly jib is small and seemingly doesn’t have the problem of losing power through it opening at the leach meaning there again wouldn’t be a clear obligation to get one. So my main argument for the class to have one is more out of easiness-the idea of simply pulling a string on the deck and applying the pole rather than the crew having to stand up, fiddle at the front of the boat which in my mind gives some people more of an advantage because I sail my boat with several crews and some are great at using the pole and some aren’t, would level the playing field even more in the class and create the opportunity for further and better tactics in up wind and downwind sailing than having to rely on ‘being able to deploy quickly’. Another positive for having it is that you cannot lose it, I don

    #53653

    Tony Thresher
    Participant

    Against for all the reasons Andy gives but mainly because I’d not have the fun of seeing Mike’s worried face at the top of the run whenever the jib pole comes out of storage and then again when it has to go back into storage!

    #53654

    Andy Reilly
    Participant

    If the desire was to turbo charge the boats, with minimal impact to the style of sailing and the ‘look’ of the boats, then adding a stiff slot gasket would deliver for both upwind and downwind sailing!

    #53655

    Andy Reilly
    Participant

    If the desire was to turbo charge the boats, with minimal impact to the style of sailing and the ‘look’ of the boats, then adding a stiff slot gasket would deliver for both upwind and downwind sailing!

    #53657

    chris guy
    Participant

    Assuming we are talking about the same thing, and with due respect to those who have been around longer than I(!)

    As long as one end is attached to the mast when in use (C7.5.1.a) then I cannot see anything preventing you from using the whisker pole on any particular point of sail. If you keep yours at maximum length then it is a bit long for all but the broadest of reaches. There is no minimum length.

    Also, F4.3.b allows other ‘optional’ fittings to the boom and F5.3.a allows optional ‘fittings’ to the whisker pole

    So I would not object to another competitor using a ‘flyaway’ pole. In fact I have used one (while sailing with a former Chairman!). I don’t remember it being overall less bother than a spike & hook and it never really caught on.

    Always good to have something contentious to discuss at the AGM! Anything to boost the numbers!

    http://www.rya.org.uk/SiteCollectionDocuments/technical/Web%20Documents/Class%20Rules/Firefly%202013160113.pdf

    #53659

    Alex Baxter
    Participant

    So by the rules Chris just mentioned, rule C.7.5 WHISKER POLE
    (a) USE
    (1) When in use one end of the whisker pole shall be attached to the whisker pole fitting on the mast.

    So if someone put a fly-away pole on their boat then it would have to come down the mast and then clip into the fitting in its usual way, meaning it would be impossible to us it on a reach meaning as Guy mentioned above we are fine to use a pole of such origin but only if it is purely in the same way as a wisker pole gives. Am I correct ?

    Another point, is there a rule stating where the wisker pole attachment has to be ?

    #53705

    Alex Baxter
    Participant

    With almost a week to go till the start of the Nationals and then the prospect of the AGM I thought it time to re launch this post and remind people

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